Sexual-orientation change - An Interview with A. Comiskey - By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D

In NARTH

“Hopelessness sets in, when a man is bound up in his shame — living small, within that closed horizon of fantasy and self-absorption.”
-Andrew Comiskey

Recently, I sat down with Andrew Comiskey (M.Div.), founder and Director of Desert Stream Ministries. For over thirty years, Andrew has worked with sexually and relationally broken men and women. His ministry developed out of his commitment to overcome his own homosexuality, and his many years as husband to wife Annette and father to their four children.

He is author of Pursuing Sexual Wholeness (Creation House), Strength in Weakness (InterVarsity Press), Naked Surrender: Coming Home To Our True Sexuality (InterVarsity Press) and founder of the Living Waters healing program.

Nicolosi: Andy, as you know, there has been a lot of controversy lately about the reality of absolute sexual-orientation change. The debate seems to be between two groups: psychotherapists, many of whom are in NARTH, vs. some spokesmen in the ex-gay movement who deny complete change. In your forty years experience, do you believe anyone can be completely free of homosexuality?

Comiskey: I have heard people report that.

Nicolosi: There are men that I’ve worked with who have said, “I have no more homosexual desire.” In our final sessions, they may consciously try to conjure up the old gay fantasies, the porn images, whatever, and it’s just nothing: “That’s it. Finished.” I tell them, “I’m sorry to have spoiled your fun.”

Comiskey: Yes, I can understand that.

Nicolosi: Or a man sees a good-looking guy in a gym locker room and he says to himself; “I remember I used to get a charge from that, but I just see him now as a nice-looking guy and that’s it.”

Comiskey: Yes, I can see that. But for most, the healing process occurs along a continuum in which people make movement from a same-sex to an opposite-sex orientation. That is the experience of my friends and colleagues. It is a process in which we encourage each other daily toward being a good offering for our spouses, special friends, etc. For these people, I see movement long that continuum.

Nicolosi: I think we agree that each individual moves along that continuum to the best of his ability. Some people are able to go two steps; some, ten steps.

Andy, let me ask you this: would you consider this an example of change? A man is walking down the street; he sees a good-looking guy, and gets a bodily reaction. Some of my clients call it the ‘zap,’ but it may not necessarily be a genital zap. It could be a shot in his chest, like, “Oh, wow!” Gays would say that this is evidence that he is still homosexual. But he says to himself: “Ah, yeah, this feeling is about my old way of relating to men. This is the kind of guy that I idealized. I know what this is about.” In other words, the bodily response is the same, but now, he attaches a different meaning of it. He experiences that moment in a new way, which makes it for him, not a sexual moment. He knows what that moment is really about – namely, his old way of desiring to connect with men. Now, is that homosexuality?

Comiskey: I would say not. That momentary experience indicates that the person continues to work out a clear sense of self-acceptance in the light of seeing another man to whom he may be tempted to abdicate himself. I don’t see that as an indicator of essential homosexuality, but as an indicator of continued integration that he is still working out.

Nicolosi: Would you agree that “still working out” might mean that in two years, he may walk down the same street, pass the same guy andfeel nothing or almost nothing, thinking to himself: “Oh, nice looking guy… next,” and nothing more?

Comiskey: Exactly. I think the “good processing” that you describe is the integration of the true self, and its capacity to be fully present to the public, or to a friend, or a spouse. Whenever one processes his experiences of momentary attraction well, he is contributing to his own healing… to his own integration as a normal man. For me and for those with whom I’m closest, our “good processing” is what liberates the pretty good offering we are to one another and to our families. I am that much freer to offer myself to others as a result of it. Hopelessness sets in when a man is bound up in his shame — living small, within that closed horizon of fantasy and self-absorption.

Nicolosi: There is another aspect to this. Some men report that their bodily reaction to another man serves them as a signal that they are not “in their integrity.” I remember when Richard Cohen and I did a TV show and the hostess said, “Richard you’re now married; can you say that you no longer have any homosexual thoughts or feelings?” Richard answered: “When I have a homosexual feeling it’s a signal to me that I’m not taking care of myself.”
In those cases, can we say that a man is still homosexual when he feels the “zap” which becomes a signal to ask himself: “OK what’s really going on with me?”

Comiskey: What they do is to withdraw the focus of energy from that other person and metaphorically, bounce it back to themselves. Ultimately these attractions are all about themselves.

Nicolosi: Yes. They’re not really about the other guy.

Comiskey: Cultural norms also intensify this self-absorption, this disintegration. Today’s culture is all about affirming the gay self. We live in a culture of excess that is the opposite of one of positive restraint. The cultural message is: “I feel, therefore I do.”

Nicolosi: “Therefore, I consume.”

Comiskey: Therefore I abandon my true self! You know, I was thinking of how important one’s community is, in addition to working with a solid therapist who keeps you focused on what you need to work out. One has to be in a healthy community–a culture within a culture–that is encouraging one to work out this integration in real life. That cannot happen via a 50-minute session once a week. We need both — the incisive nature of the therapeutic relationship, combined with a community of shared, counter-cultural values. I think both are non-negotiable. We must work hard to try and ensure both for those who are gradually walking out of their same-sex attraction.

Nicolosi: Your emphasis on supportive community is confirmed by a recently published study that found that 65 % of a client’s success was due to having a supportive community. This is not just for SSA, but also for any unwanted condition. But tell me, Andy, in your years of ministry experience, what would you say are a few critical issues that an individual needs to address to resolve his homosexuality? What would be the key challenges to the individual desiring to diminish his same-sex attractions?

Comiskey: One key is his own motivation, which can range from immature to mature. Does a person want to change for church or for Mother or some other powerful figure in one’s life? I think a mature motivation is: “I want to be free for my own sake.”

Nicolosi: I want this for me.

Comiskey: I want this for me, and I think it takes time to know that, and it takes time to get there. There also needs to be a strong spiritual component. Our yearning for God is related to our sexuality. A transition out of homosexuality requires a presence more powerful than self, and a mature willingness to submit to that higher power.

Nicolosi: So it’s personal desire aligned with this transcendent force outside oneself.

Comiskey: No person can escape the fact that what we are created for, sexually-speaking, is written on our hearts. No amount of cultural shifting can erase that.

When you see the ardor in the gay activist, you can’t help but think he is working his conflict out on us, and on the culture — trying in vain to prove just “how good and normal I am” through another legal victory like gay marriage.

On the other hand, power is unleashed in true submission to the Creator and the Redeemer. When you are in alignment with His purposes, you hit solid ground and start to move forward. That has everything to do with the person’s movement on this continuum rather than on simply “sin-management.”

And of course, there must also be a willingness to go to the heart of one’s pain, the early suffering in one’s life.

Nicolosi: That would be equivalent to what we call the Grief Work, the final stage of reparative therapy.

Comiskey: I think you describe that very well. I was inspired by your work, Joe, and it confirmed what we have seen in our Living Waters ministry participants with regard to the depth of the shame related to many men’s gender disintegration. One must go to that depth of grief, and yet one can’t go there unless there is that “therapeutic alliance” with those trustworthy companions or good helpers like yourself. That alliance, combined with spiritual union, is what enables one to go into the pain.

Nicolosi: I like your term, “gender disintegration.” It captures the phenomenon these men are experiencing.

Comiskey: Yes. And the healing process we’re talking about necessitates an honest dealing with those core issues, and developing intimate but non-erotic relationships in which new experiences of friendship can be forged.

At the same time, Joe, we need to have a healthy regard for the power of sin. I don’t know how else to put it. I think we’re losing a kind of a “holy fear,” if you will, in this healing process. Without that fear, one can readily digress into sensual and dependent unions that stoke same-sex attraction and foster false selves. We have talked about this before….there is a true self, made in the image of God. We must encourage a godly fear of Him en route to integrating that self, toward becoming whole.

Nicolosi: You and I approach the problem of homosexuality from somewhat different perspectives, since I am a psychologist and you are a minister, but there seems to be much agreement between us in our view of the healing process. I appreciate your bold witness. Although change may happen on a continuum, we both see so many men who were once — as you say – “living small, within that closed horizon of fantasy and self-absorption,” who have been freed to grow more fully into their gender wholeness.

Thank you, Andy.

Doctor Nicolosi: «Es posible dejar la vida gay cuando descubres que en esos sufrimientos hay causas emotivas

In ReligiónenLibertad.com

Joseph Nicolosi es psiquiatra desde hace varios años y trabaja la llamada terapia reparativa de la homosexualidad; es cofundador y director de la Asociación Nacional para la Investigación y la Terapia de la homosexualidad (NARTH), miembro de la Asociación Psicológica Americana, autor de numerosos libros y artículos científicos. Su último libro publicado en España se titula: «Quiero dejar de ser homosexual» (Ediciones Encuentro).

- Doctor Nicolosi, ¿qué es la homosexualidad?
- La homosexualidad es un síntoma de un problema emotivo y representa necesidades emotivas insatisfechas desde la infancia, especialmente en la relación con el progenitor del mismo sexo. En otras palabras: para el chico que no ha tenido una conexión emotiva con el padre, y para la chica que no ha tenido atención emotiva por parte de la madre, ello puede inducirles a desarrollar un síntoma de atracción hacia el propio sexo, u homosexualidad.

- ¿La homosexualidad es «normal»? ¿Y qué es normal?
- Yo no pienso que la homosexualidad sea normal. La población homosexual es alrededor del 2%, 1.5% - 2%. Por tanto estadísticamente no es “normal” en el sentido que esté muy extendida. Además de esto, no es normal tampoco en términos de natural designio. Cuando hablamos de ley natural, y de la función del cuerpo humano. Cuando miramos la función del cuerpo humano, la homosexualidad no es normal. Es un síntoma de algún desorden. La normalidad es aquello que cumple una función conforme al propio designio; éste es el concepto de ley natural – y en este sentido la homosexualidad no puede ser normal, porque la anatomía de dos hombres, los cuerpos de dos hombres, o dos mujeres, no son compatibles.

- ¿Cuáles son las causas de la homosexualidad? ¿Y existe una causa genética?
- Como he dicho, las causas de la homosexualidad se remontan a la autopercepción del niño o de la niña en la primera infancia. El chico necesita de una relación con su padre para desarrollar su substancial identidad masculina, la chica necesita de una unión emotiva o relación con su madre para desarrollar su feminidad. Es el sentido del género que determina la orientación sexual; en otras palabras, cuando un chico se siente seguro de su masculinidad, se siente naturalmente atraído por las mujeres. Y la misma cosa es cierta para las mujeres: cuando una joven chica se siente segura de su identidad femenina, se sentirá naturalmente atraída por los chicos. El homosexual es una persona que carece del sentido de género, y por ello trata de remediar, o busca un remedio a través de otras personas. Esta inclinación se hace sexualizada, y es por ello que manifiestan el síntoma de la homosexualidad.

Se habla mucho de las causas genéticas de la homosexualidad y más o menos hace veinte años en los Estados Unidos se hablaba en continuación del «gen gay», o de «cerebro gay», pero ningún estudio ha demostrado tal cosa. De hecho los activistas gay en los Estados Unidos ya no hablan tanto de bases biológicas o genéticas, porque ningún estudio lo ha demostrado y ha ofrecido tal confirmación. Son mucho más evidentes las causas familiares y ambientales, especialmente aquélla que llamamos la «clásica relación triádica» constituida por el chico con un padre distanciado y crítico, por una madre hiper-involucrada, intrusiva y a veces dominante y por un chico constitucionalmente sensible, introvertido y refinado que está expuesto a un riesgo mayor de sentirse falto en la identidad sexual. Nosotros vemos este esquema continuamente.

Nosotros reconocemos que en muchas personas hay una predisposición constitucional a la homosexualidad, pero es una cosa distinta a la pre-determinación, o a una “causa” directa. Esto es, el chico puede ser constitucionalmente proclive a la homosexualidad, en los términos de su constitución pasiva o delicada, y en su dificultad en crear un vínculo con el padre y en sentirse confiado para con el mundo masculino, pero es necesaria la “clásica relación triádica” ambiental para crear un problema homosexual a un chico con esta constitución.

- ¿Cuál es la diferencia entre “gay” y “homosexual”?
- Es esencial hacer esta importante distinción entre gay y homosexuales. Los activistas gay querrían que nosotros creyésemos que todos los homosexuales son gay. De hecho, incluso la jerarquía de la Iglesia católica cree que las personas homosexuales sean «gay». Nosotros no creemos que ellos sean gay. La palabra «gay» indica una identidad socio-política. Homosexual, en cambio, es simplemente una descripción de un problema psicológico, de una orientación sexual.

Las personas que vienen a nuestra clínica, que buscan una ayuda, tienen un problema homosexual, pero rechazan la etiqueta de gay. No quieren ser llamados “gay” porque no se reconocen en aquella identidad socio-política y con el estilo de vida gay.

- ¿El movimiento gay es un movimiento para los derechos humanos?
- Desde un cierto punto de vista lo es, es un movimiento para los derechos humanos, o para los derechos civiles, porque todas las personas, no importa cual sea su orientación sexual, tienen que disfrutar de los derechos civiles – de todos modos ello no significa que la sociedad deba redefinir el matrimonio; ésto es otro argumento que va más allá del objetivo de esta conversación.

Nosotros creemos que muchos activistas gay han usado la cuestión de los derechos civiles o de las libertades civiles como una manera para oprimir personas que están tratando de cambiar, personas que están tratando de salir de la homosexualidad. Hay una población entera de individuos que han salido o que están saliendo de la homosexualidad, y este hecho es una amenaza para los activistas gay, y los activistas gay están tratando de suprimir y silenciar este punto de vista, esta población.

Infelicidad, depresión, suicidio...
- Los investigadores dicen que los homosexuales sufren mucho. ¿La causa de este sufrimiento es la homosexualidad o la homofobia social?
- Nosotros creemos que hay sufrimiento para las personas homosexualmente orientadas en la sociedad, porque la cultura gay es minoritaria en esta sociedad y porque los objetivos sociales del movimiento gay constituyen una amenaza para el cuerpo social porque los gay quieren redefinir el matrimonio, la naturaleza de la paternidad, y la norma social fundamental acerca del género y del sexo, por ello la sociedad ha resistido a la normalización de la homosexualidad y a la visibilidad de los gay. Y reconocemos que ello sea difícil para las personas que se identifican como gay.

De todos modos, de lo que no se habla es del desorden intrínseco en la condición homosexual. Nosotros creemos que la homosexualidad sea intrínsecamente desordenada, y contraria a la verdadera identidad del individuo; y muchos de los síntomas de los que sufren las personas gay y lesbianas no son causados por la homofobia social sino porque la condición misma es contraria a su verdadera naturaleza.

Muchísimos estudios demuestran que los homosexuales son más infelices, depresivos, predispuestos a los intentos de suicidio, tienen relaciones pobres, son incapaces de mantener relaciones a largo plazo, tienen comportamientos autolesionistas e inadaptados. Pero no se puede simplísticamente decir que todo ello esté causado por la homofobia de la sociedad. En parte lo es; pero yo creo que la mayor parte de los sufrimientos se deba a la naturaleza desordenada de la misma homosexualidad – porque se opone a nuestra naturaleza humana.

- ¿El cambio es posible?
- El cambio es realmente posible. Nosotros vemos cada vez más individuos que quieren dar un paso al frente y dar su testimonio. Hace cinco años hubiera sido muy difícil encontrar un ex homosexual que quisiera exponerse, pero felizmente hoy hombres y mujeres que eran declaradamente gay y lesbianas, que vivian un estilo de vida gay, ahora quieren discutir abiertamente de su proceso de cambio. Muchos de ellos están casados con niños, y les habían dicho que no tenían otra opción que ser gay, y que tenían un gen de la homosexualidad, y que tenían que aprender a aceptarlo, pero estas personas han sido capaces de ir a fondo en las causas de su atracción hacia el propio sexo. Y entonces han descubierto que muchos de sus sufrimientos eran debidos a causas emotivas. Y cuando estas necesidades han sido reconocidas honradamente y satisfechas de manera sana, su deseo homosexual ha disminuido.

Hay un camino para salir de la homosexualidad
- ¿Qué es la terapia reparativa?
- La terapia reparativa es un particular tipo de psicoterapia que es aplicada a los individuos que quieren superar su atracción homosexual. Es una terapia particular que mira a los orígenes y a las causas de esta condición, que ayuda al cliente a comprenderse, enseñándole a entender qué ha ocurrido en su infancia, a entender los sucesos particulares que le han ocurrido, especialmente en los términos de las relaciones con su madre y con su padre, y a ir más allá de todo ello, a apoyar al cliente en crear aquellas nuevas relaciones que son sanas, que son benéficas, y que compensan el vacío emotivo que se ha creado en su desarrollo.

La terapia reparativa estudia realmente a fondo las técnicas que son más eficaces para disminuir la homosexualidad de una persona y a desarrollar su potencial heterosexual.

- ¿Cuáles son las bases teóricas de la terapia reparativa?
- Fundamentalmente la terapia reparativa comienza, teóricamente, con la terapia psicodinámica, esto es, aquella que estudia las fuerzas subconscientes que gobiernan el comportamiento de las personas.

Desde el punto de vista teórico nosotros creemos que las necesidades emocionales no satisfechas se expriman indirectamente bajo forma de síntomas, y en el caso de la homosexualidad como atracción homosexual; pero que la homosexualidad no afecte realmente al sexo, cuanto más bien el intento de adquirir satisfacciones emotivas e identificación, complemento, a través del comportamiento homosexual; intento que sin embargo no funciona, y es ésta la razón por la que las personas vienen a buscarnos.

Muchos de los desarrollos teóricos están basados en la teoría psicodinámica clásica: nosotros usamos muchos conceptos freudianos – como es notorio, Freud pensaba que la homosexualidad fuera un desorden del desarrollo, y que fuera una condición que podía someterse a tratamiento. Aunque el mismo Freud fuera un defensor de los derechos de los gay, creía que el tratamiento tenía que estar disponible para aquellos que querían cambiar, y nosotros seguimos la misma línea de tradición.

Nosotros usamos también muchas de las “teorías del apego” de John Bowlby, de aquella de las relaciones objetuales y de la self-psychology, muy popular en los Estados Unidos. Nosotros trabajamos también con la familia de origen, ayudando al paciente a entender sus relaciones con su familia, y su papel en la familia, y cómo el sitio ocupado por él en la estructura familiar lo ha conducido al fracaso en la adquisición del propio género”.

Living in Harmony with One's Biological Design: Interview with an Ex-Gay Man

By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.

In News From NARTH - 01. 02. 2010

In this December 2009 transcript, Dr. Nicolosi interviews Gordon Opp.

"There is within me, and I think there is within all of us, what I call the inner person-the real me," Gordon says. Sometimes the "real me" or "inner person” will be in conflict with what he wants to do. But these desires do not change nature's reality: men and women were designed for one another

J.N. Gordon, it's been about eleven years since we did our last interview, which is still available on the NARTH web site. I know that interview has been helpful to many people. Let me begin today with this question: How long has it been since you've been out of homosexuality?

G.O. I've been married 31 years, and about a year before our marriage, I stopped acting out homosexually.

J.N. When you say "acting out," can you explain?

G.O. There was about a four-year period in my twenties when I practiced homosexuality off and on. I experienced quite a few one-time sexual contacts with individual men and I had a few relationships that lasted three or four months each.

J.N. Do you have any regrets now about leaving homosexuality?

G.O. No. Not at all.

J.N. So you've been married now for 31 years, with three grown children, and-- how many grandchildren?

G.O. Five grandkids.

J.N. And so your life story is open, everyone knows--it's not a big secret.

G.O. No, it's not a big secret at all. Our daughters are just barely a year apart, and when they were in junior-high school, people started asking me to give interviews about my ministry, so we decided to tell the girls then, before I became more public about it.

J.N. Any advice for young people who are trying to decide whether or not to pursue a gay lifestyle? I guess for you and your own experience, you'd say that it didn't work.

G.O. No, I wouldn't say it that way-- it just sounds so trite, "Don't pursue homosexuality-- it doesn't work."

J.N. Could you elaborate on that?

G.O. Well, especially for men (and that's been my experience, obviously), we men are attracted primarily through sight. I remember when I was going to gay parties and such in my early 20's, I would see other guys about ten or fifteen years older--in their mid- to late-30's-- and I would think that I wouldn't want those guys around me, because they're already old. So I learned that for me, anyway, and for the circles I ran in, this was going to be a short-lived life-without permanency, without real roots.

J.N. What other advice might help others in the process of discernment?

G.O. I'd say, "Become a critical thinker." You shouldn't trust the sound bites you get in the news, or even the politically correct things you're going to get in the classrooms at the universities and such. This decision concerns your whole life, so be a critical thinker and search out the truth. I did a lot of searching as a young kid, but there wasn't much information out there.

J.N. I agree. Why do you think the gay movement been so successful in taking over our culture?

G.O. I think it's because as a culture, we want to please people. We're in the "microwave age"-- we want everything to be fixed quickly and with little effort, but pursuing heterosexuality is not for the faint-hearted. For a man who's struggled with same-sex attractions, it's hard work.

J.N. Yes. As a therapist, too, I can tell you it's hard work.

G.O. And people don't want to work hard.

J.N. What were the deciding factors in your own decision to leave homosexuality?

G.O. I wanted what most everybody wants-- I wanted family, security. I wanted to grow old together with somebody that I was committed to. I wanted children, a house, a job, and a picket fence, all of those things -- the American dream. And I couldn't have that with homosexuality.

J.N. Gays would argue with you that certainly you can have a family and children and a picket fence, and community. How would you answer that?

G.O. I'll address the family thing first. As far as children, and the issue of adoption for gays, it's not that the gay parent can't love the child, but what is it doing to the child? First and foremost, I'm concerned about the child. He needs a mother and a father.

J.N. What are the consequences to a child to be raised by two lesbians or two gay men?

G.O. We are designed to have a mother and a father. Of course, for all kinds of reasons not every child can have that-- but that is the ideal, and we hurt kids when we deliberately and intentionally deprive them of that experience. I'm a real estate agent now, and the other day, I was working on a listing-it was a home with a single mother who was raising four boys, a couple of adolescents and a couple of young ones--and I don't know what situation occurred that put her into the position of being a single mom, but my heart just went out to her, and my heart also went out to those boys. The absence of the father in that home was just tragic.

J.N. I think you're absolutely right.

What are the factors that made it possible for you to successfully follow through on your decision over so many years?

G.O. I suppose one of the beginning factors was my tenacity, to try to beat it. Going back to what I said in the beginning about being a critical thinker, I'm a Christian and whatever I do, I either want to do it wholeheartedly, or I'm not going to waste my time. So when I became convinced that Christianity was true, there was no way I could embrace homosexual behavior and practice as a good thing in the context of my faith.

You cannot support both gay unions and "true" Christianity. It doesn't work, because they're incompatible.

J.N. I'd like to bring up the recent American Psychological Association (APA) Task Force Report, which says that there is "insufficient evidence" to prove that change is possible. What would you say to those APA Task Force members--all of whom, by the way, are activists in gay causes, and none of whom are reorientation therapists-- if you could speak to them?

G.O. Well the first thing I would ask the APA is, "What is your definition of change?" Because I believe the APA is asking, when it defines change, "Do you ever have any more homosexual thoughts? Then you haven't changed." But "complete change" wouldn't be realistic-for a man with a homosexual background, or a man struggling with any other issue. I'm an honest person and I would say, "Yes, those thoughts are there occasionally, and they give me a little grief." But do those thoughts and feelings control my life? No way.

I've been married now for 31 years -- very happily married. No marriage is without its problems, but, do I have any regrets? No. I have no regrets. I have lived a heterosexual life and been faithful to my wife, and I've had my family and enjoyed everything that goes along with family life.

I would like to compare change of sexual orientation to alcoholism. In medical terms, an alcoholic would seem to have what we call a disease (that can be debatable, too), but let's just say it is a disease. So let's say I've been sober for 31 years. But then, I lose my job, my wife's mad at me, and I drive home, and I drive past the bar. Man, I want to turn in and get drunk! But I don't. Would it be fair for the APA to say, "See-- you haven't changed after all! You're still an alcoholic!"

J.N. Sure.

G.O. That is how offended I am by the APA's saying I haven't changed-- just because I, like a former alcoholic, can have the temptation. Still, pride comes before a fall, and I would be the last one to say that I couldn't ever possibly fall; but even if I did, it doesn't change my fundamental commitment to my identity-- not as a gay man, but as a heterosexual man who has struggled with a homosexual problem.

J.N.: What would you say to encourage people considering coming out of a lifestyle?

G.O. Each person must ask-- who am I? What do I want to be? There is within me, and I think there is within all of us, what I call the inner person-the real me. Sometimes that real person in me is in conflict with what I want to do, and sometimes there are those homosexual urges. But I'm going to say no to those same-sex desires, because that's not the real me. I refuse to be identified by my occasional homosexual feelings. My body is designed to be intimate with a female, and so that is the real me. This true heterosexual man is not going to be sexually intimate with another male.

J.N. Let me give you a little metaphor to see if this makes sense to you, because the APA Task Force says you can change your identity, you can say, "I am not a homosexual...I am not identifying with homosexuality," but that doesn't change your sexual orientation. Their implication is that homosexuality is "who you are" whether you acknowledge it or not. But I believe that if you change your identity, it will change not only the quantity of your homosexual behaviors, but also the quality. Let me give you an example of this qualitative change. You're sitting in front of the television and it's 8:00 at night, and suddenly you feel hungry and you remember there's that one slice of chocolate pie still in the refrigerator. You're eating it and while you're eating it, you're saying to yourself, "I really am hungry!" But then, rewind the tape: You're sitting in front of the television, you feel hungry, but you realize you're really not hungry-actually, you're bored. You eat the pie anyway to relieve the boredom, and while you're eating the pie you know you're just eating it because you were bored. When will you enjoy the pie more, when you believe you're truly hungry, or when you believe you're bored?

G.O. Of course, when you believe you're hungry.

J.N. Yes, and I think that a gay-identified person is going to interpret his sexual experiences differently-as a form of genuine "hunger." But men like yourself will reflect and then say to themselves, "This attraction I'm feeling right now is notpart of who I am. It's about my frustrations, or my disconnectedness, or it's about the way I handle shame."

G.O. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. It describes me.

J.N. You had the feelings, but they were not "you"; you didn't accept the identity.

G.O. Exactly. In the beginning, though, I questioned it. I thought, "Maybe it's not a lie, maybe there's just something wrong with me and eventually, I'll fit into this 'gay' thing and it will feel right and feel true." But the real me was resisting this.

J.N. You thought, "If I just keep trying a little longer, I'll overcome my internalized homophobia." But even though you engaged in the behavior, it wasn't satisfying. Clients will tell me, the more I understand the origins of my same-sex attraction, the more it changes the quality of the homosexual experience because I know this attraction is not happening to me just because this guy with me is "hot."

G.O. Yes. Recognizing this has helped me to understand where some of these longings were coming from. I found myself attracted to "ever-straight" guys, and I think that's because I wasn't really looking for sex, I was looking for something much deeper than that.

J.N.: Yes. For a deeper same-sex bonding.

G.O.: But the problem is how compelling the act is. I remember how one of your articles on the NARTH website was saying that gay sex is a whole lot more intense for same-sex attracted guys than heterosexual sex is--there's more of a "zing" to it-- because gay sex is trying to meet needs that were never intended to be met in the sexual act. And I remember in the last interview you and I did, I talked about how whenever you add sex to a deeper need-when you try to gratify that deeper, unmet need in a sexual way-- it really ramps the experience up, and so there's this zing.

J.N.: Yes.

G.O.: But when you're trying to get your emotional needs with men met in a non-sexual way, there's inevitably this disappointment, and it's like, "OK, I've got this great male friend and he's really attentive to me and he wants to be with me and we do good things-but why is this experience not doing for me what the sexual experience did?"

J.N. Right.

G.O. Then, when you're looking at being properly attracted to your wife, you can't take all those deficit needs that you were trying to get fulfilled through sex with a man and transfer that same feeling to your experience with wife. They're totally different things.

J.N. Yes...they originate from totally different needs.

G.O. Uh huh. . And so you have a couple of things to work on-first, getting your needs met properly with men without sex, without undue emotional dependency; and second, developing your true heterosexuality with your wife and letting that relationship become the complementary one that it has been naturally designed to be.

Fortunately, my wife long ago caught on to the fact that when I was having good, healthy relationships with men, I was more attentive to her.

J.N. Yes, that's what all my clients tell me....that healthy, ongoing male relationships are essential. Now, I'd like to go back to something you said before-- "I was attracted to ever-straight men"....

G.O. Yes, when I was acting out, I would be in a homosexual relationship two- to three-months or so, and I would get tired of my partner because he didn't have what I was looking for. Before too long, I could see that the other man had the same void that I had.

J.N. A void in masculine identity.

G.O. Exactly.

J.N. Let me ask this....has anything changed for you since our last interview, which was eleven years ago?

G.O. Well, a lot has changed. I've gotten older! By this time in my life, I'm pretty much at ease now with all men. Once in a while I am still intimidated, but that was a big part of the origins of my homosexuality-that, and everyday envy.

J.N. With just about every client I deal with, those same issues are there-- intimidation and envy.

G.O. So the older I get, the more I can just enjoy other men. Men used to seem more "mysterious" to me, and sometimes they still do, but whenever I get to know them a little bit better and get under their skin, I find out that we're not so different after all.

J.N. Of course! They're not so mysterious after all; they're "who you are." Now, can you explain a little further why you believe that heterosexuality is the norm?

G.O. I believe that we were designed and created for our bodies to go together, and for our emotions go together. I believe this is pretty self-evident.

J.N. So you see the evidence of our biological design-our male-female complementarity.

G.O. Yes. I mean, two tomcats really aren't friends with each other -- there's always some form of rivalry. Of course, men can in fact be buddies and very close friends, but they can't really be committed partners who meet each other's sexual needs in a deep and ongoing way. They're just not made for that. That's where the promiscuity eventually comes in.

J.N. And without the stabilizing and the grounding effect of a woman in the relationship, what two men have together, just can't be marriage-like. It inevitably turns into an open relationship, as research on gay men shows. With lesbians, it's the other way around; there's the natural female tendency -doubled up when two women are together-- for the relationship to become excessively dependent.

G.O. Right. And speaking of marriage, that's one of the wonderful things, the blessings I've had-- I've got a wonderful wife. We are blessed to have a lot of the same interests and same values. And of course, as members of the opposite sex, we complement each other in terms of gender. In our relationship, I take a leadership role; she is very perceptive and a wise woman that does not "lord it over" me in any way. We're made for each other, as a man and a woman. A man and a man simply aren't capable of that type of a relationship.

J.N. Looking back, what do you think were the things that happened to you in your childhood that could have laid the foundation for your homosexuality?

G.O. Well, I have an older brother, and then there was me, but my dad just took a shine to my older brother. By the time I came along, they had been hoping for a girl, so when I was born, my mom, on the other hand, took a shine to me. I related more to her in the things we did, and it was understood that I was hers, and my brother was my dad's.

J.N. You know, a lot of the men I work with will say to me, "I was my mother's son and my brother was my father's son." There's often that same unspoken division.

G.O. Uh huh. So that was the beginning of my feeling different from other men. Looking back in my own life and especially when I see other children, I believe some kids are saved from homosexuality by the intervention of a same-sex family member-for boys, sometimes an uncle or a grandpa. When I see this intervention in other families, I say, I'm so thankful that that little boy has this adult male is his life.

J.N. All they need is one man who is involved in their life.

G.O. I was so deficient in male relatives. No one around me.

J.N. Did your father ever reach out to you; did he ever try to pull you into this circle of himself and his other son?

G.O. You know, there was a time when I was really hard on both my parents. I blamed them for everything. My mom would often say, "You were always so special... we just had this bond." Yeah, Mom, and that "special bond" really messed me up. My dad wasn't all that bad of a guy. I was just one of those kids that especially needed a dad. He didn't know how to be super-sensitive to what was going on with me. He was kind of into himself and the things he did.

J.N. So you're saying that he didn't reach out to you and try to work with you?

G.O. I can't say that he did. But I don't want to really degrade my dad; he had his faults, definitely, but later in life (he died when I was 34), and the last several years of his life especially, let's just say that he was open to having a relationship with me. He didn't pursue it and I was pretty defensive about a relationship myself, because when you grew up with a dad not wanting to hold you...there's a certain block that stays there.

J.N.: That detachment.

G.O.: My parents had a difficult marriage and my mother looked to me for emotional support when my dad wasn't available. Then, they would come back together, and things would be good again. During those good times, she didn't need me, and I resented that.

J.N.: You resented being made to feel special, and then being dropped.

G.O.: Yes, but in the marriage, I saw her as the victim, and so I had to protect her. Of course, neither of my parents hurt me intentionally.

J.N. Of course. There was no awareness of how this was affecting you.

G.O. My mother is still alive, and I have a good relationship with her. I think she understands all this as best as she can, and she feels bad. I don't know if she sees it as clearly as I might like her to, but she sees it enough, and that's OK with me.

J.N.: Yes. So, over time, you have made peace about this.

G.O.: Yes.

J.N.: How did your brother fit into this?

G.O. I actually had two brothers; one older and one younger. I also have a younger sister. Neither of my brothers struggled with this issue. I know that my older brother always cared about me, and I appreciated that. I told him about my homosexuality during the years I was acting out-roughly when I was age 20 to 24. He was three years older and married to a great lady, and had a couple of kids and lived in another state, and at the time, he and his wife were home with our extended family for the holidays and they came to my apartment to say goodbye. I was in a bad way-- depressed and stuff-- and as I said goodbye standing outside the window of their car, I said, "Oh by the way, I struggle with homosexuality..." He and his wife had eight hours driving home to think about what I had said, and when he got home he called me and said he loved me and cared about me and was sorry about my struggle.

J.N. So you felt this loving from him many years later....What about when you were younger?

G.O. He was older and more athletic and there was this rivalry thing at school. When your brother goes to junior high and is great in sports and you come along three years later, they expect all that from you, too, and then you fall on your face...Because I couldn't do that, not surprisingly, at that time, there was this feeling from him of rejection.

J.N. Was there any sexual stuff that set you up for homosexuality anywhere in childhood?

G.O. There was one thing when I was eleven. At summer camp there was a counselor...he was probably 21 or 22. I just needed male acceptance, and here was this counselor that dotes over us-- you know, boy, was he important to us kids.... The third night we were there, my bed was next to his, and he had his hand on my penis. But you know what? I never told anybody about that. At the time I didn't think of it as bad.

J.N. That's very often the psychology of the abused child; they don't think of what happened to them as significant. But here you were, a boy who craved male attention and esteem, and unfortunately, when the attention came to you, it had sex attached to it.

G.O. Yes. But I never thought he was a bad guy for it. I just always thought of him fondly.

J.N. Do you think this experience did you any harm?

G.O. Looking back now, I think it did. It really fixated the object of my same-sex attraction. The guys that I'm most attracted to, are like he was -- they are built like he was.

J.N. If the sexual contact did not happen then, you would not have been fixated

so much on that image?

G.O. No, I think I probably would not have been fixated on that. I think I still would have had a lot of problems, though....Yeah...now that you mention it, it is funny I never thought that event was significant.

J.N. I don't know if you remember, but a number of years ago a prestigious journal of the American Psychological Association reported a study, and the conclusion was that boys are not necessarily harmed by sexual contact with an older man, and in fact in many cases, the boys remembered the experience positively, and considered it beneficial. So the authors of the article said we should stop using judgmental terms like "sexual abuse" to describe "positive" childhood experiences like these.

We protested this conclusion. As psychologists, shouldn't we know that what feels, to the child, beneficial, can in fact be very harmful? Dr. Laura Schlesinger got involved in condemning the study-even Congress got involved. The APA had to issue a clarification and a partial disclaimer. That was the biggest public-relations crisis of the American Psychological Association, and it was NARTH that brought it to public attention. Before we got involved, no one in our profession had noticed the harmfulness and simplistic conclusions of the study...there seemed to be the typical prevailing attitude, "Who's to say...???" Not surprisingly, that study had already begun to be used in legal cases as justification for excusing some same-sex child abusers from responsibility.

G.O. Good for you. You know, I've thought about that childhood incident often...wondering , why is it that the "look" of that counselor remained so powerful in my memory for so long, and is still sometimes what I respond to...?

J.N. Yes. You can see how that experience first put into motion the sexualization of your same-sex emotional needs.

Well, it's about time for us to end this interview. Any last thing that you would like to add?

G.O. Yes. I guess sometimes people have said of me, because I reject homosexuality, "You're just not being true to yourself." You know, I just don't feel that way. I have indeed been true to myself -- and I have so many blessings because of it. My family is just unbelievably important to me, and I can't imagine life without them. I never would have had that if I had been true to what I once thought was myself - if I had been "true to" homosexuality and let it define me.

J.N.: Yes. That certainly summarizes it.

G.O.: Sex is so over-rated -- heterosexual or homosexual. It's a wonderful thing and it's to be enjoyed and taken care of, but in the end, what's really important is relationships, healthy relationships. That--to me-- is being true to myself... being able to live out whatever days or years I have left in this lifetime, and to enjoy the healthy and full relationships that I never really experienced in my childhood.

J.N.: I certainly respect that decision and that understanding of your identity. And I am sure that your experience will give inspiration to others.

Thank you very much, Gordon.